The close relationship between prophesying and the evaluation of prophetic utterances in 1. Cor. 14:29 indicates that there is a connection between the gift of prophecy and the gift of “distinguishing between spirits,” just as there is between the gift of tongues and the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Cor. 12:10).¹

Vassula Rydén: Yes. You must consider the position I was in where I was completely ignorant about divine charisms. Of course, when this call came to me, I knew something was going on because there were visions, a voice speaking within me, and there was the evident joy of God s presence. There was something happening!

And yet, in the total ignorance I was in then, it was very difficult for me to digest that it was the Creator speaking to me, because it was so awesome. It was more than amazing to me that God could give locutions to a mere creature like me, who had never heard that this was even possible. This is the reason for my doubts, which kept tormenting me because I had no one to ask about what was happening.

NCH: So these charisms were the reason for your doubts?

Vassula: If I had known that God gave charisms, maybe I would not have had such powerful doubts. Maybe I would have said, “well, perhaps God is speaking to me! Maybe God is calling me.”

Let me give you an example: we are sitting in my kitchen, we know it’s the afternoon, the sun is shining, — you can see it through the windows and yet, if you are right in the interior of the house where there are no windows you could doubt that the sun is shining, because you can’t actually see it.

It was clear to me that God was speaking, but I had no solid, concrete and physical proof. It was all within me, and I had to accept it. God’s powerful presence gives peace and it makes your heart leap with joy. There were also mystical manifestations, such as the fact that my hand would be ‘taken’.

I have read in St Teresa of Avila that this is called ‘rapture’ of part of the body. St Teresa said God can ‘rapture’ the whole body, or part of it and I would say now that my hand was ‘raptured’ and led to write in a different manner. I learned this much later, when I wanted to find out what was happening to me.

I was never, as some people accuse me, just putting my hand on a piece of paper and letting go so that it moved without knowing what it was doing. This is wrong. This is what is called automatic writing. It was not then automatic writing and it is not now automatic writing. I would hear the voice, sometimes hearing it the day before I would write down what I heard when my hand would be taken.

NCH: And you consider that the most significant difference from automatic writing?

Vassula: That is correct.

NCH: I wanted to talk more about the reasons for your doubts. You mention that you did not know that other people had had locutions. If you had known, you might have more easily said, “I’m just one of many,” and thereby rejected the experience?

Vassula: I really do not know how I would have reacted. As I said many times, I did not pray, I was not close to God I did not know God at all. If I had known that God gave locutions for the benefit of the person and the benefit of the Church, which always go together, perhaps I would have doubted still. I would have said, “why does God come to a person like me?” I might have rejected it. I am very sceptical and very hard on myself and have a tremendous fear of being deceived.

NCH: When did the doubts actually begin?

Vassula: The doubts did not begin the first or second day, nor the third, because I believe I received grace to just accept the amazing thing that was happening to me with joy! As I described in the introduction to the angel book (My Angel Daniel), I was literally flying all around the house, waiting for the hour my husband came home from his job so that I could share it with him. And he, too, believed. I can only tell you that this was grace working at its maximum. My husband is a Lutheran, who like myself never went to church, and he and I both believed like children! We accepted it. It went on like this and I didn’t have a trace of doubt for about three months.

NCH: And your children? They all knew that you were not “crazy?”

Vassula: Oh yes. They believed. We were wondering, in a sense, why it was happening, as it was not clear. But it was just as if heaven opened, and the Angel, the Father, and Jesus just were accepted into the family.

My first doubts, terrific doubts, came when I went to the Church opposite the house where we lived in Bangladesh and shared it with first one priest, and then another. That is when seeds of doubt were put into me. From then on, it was hell for me.

NCH: Was it a purification?

Vassula: It was terrible. I remember describing it to somebody: it was like being a child of three years left or abandoned in a garden, covered with berries and fruits and mushrooms which are all edible. And the child feeds herself on these things for about three months, delighting herself. Then comes a passer-by, an adult, who says to the child, “Wow, you’ve been eating all this! For these three months! Well, you had better be careful. Maybe you will find a mushroom or a berry which is poisonous and die!” Then what happens? The child is scared out of her wits and doesn’t even dare to pick up another berry.

That is what happened to me after I went to the priest. He scared the wits out of me, telling me it could be schizophrenia. Well, I knew it wasn’t schizophrenia because I know myself, and I am not nuts, but I was afraid it could be Satan trying to trick me. I was completely confused. I thought, if it is Satan, how come he made me love God?

The priest had an answer for that too, saying: “Yes, Satan makes you believe you are loving God, but he has a plan, and later on, he will show his claws”. But this did not make sense to me either, because the charism conveyed to me so much joy, and brought me closer to Jesus.

My life was completely changed. It changed even in those first three months. I wanted to go to church. I wanted to read the Scriptures. How was it possible that Satan was doing these things? And yet the doubts really started to pour in, because I was ignorant, as I told you.

There were two priests, Fr Karl and Fr James. Fr Karl’s accusation that I was schizophrenic did not bother me so much. I was sad because I thought — again, in my ignorance — that finally somebody somewhere would know about these charisms and would understand me. It was natural for him not to accept it immediately, but I was shocked, as he truly was saying that I was crazy! Nevertheless, I knew that he would find out that this was not true, which he did, and we became friends.

NCH: So you never accepted the thesis that it was all in you mind?

Vassula: No. I knew it could not be in my mind. I will tell you later on the reasons why.But Fr Karl eventually began to think it could be a charism and said, “Probably it really is God calling you.” And then he looked sadly at me again, and he said, “I do pity you. I really feel sorry for you! Because God will demand something.” I remember that. He said, “God will come back to you and ask you something. He never gives a gift for nothing.” This scared me, too!

NCH: But that was a different kind of fear!

Vassula: Yes. It also confirmed, a little bit, that I was in the supernatural realm with God. I believe that the other priest, who didn’t know me at all to start with, judged me on my looks. “Jazzy-looking”, as he called me, concluding that it could not be God but Satan who was talking to me, and in this way, it started all over again. But this time I was a little stronger, a little more convinced that it was not Satan. We had an exchange of letters, a dispute, I would almost say.

NCH: So that was your biggest fear, then, that the charism was from Satan? You never feared that it was from your subconscious, as you had reasons to disbelieve that, but you feared that it was from the devil?

Vassula: Very little. The biggest fear that came was sent by the priest! I was afraid that it was Satan, but then immediately I woud ask myself: “ How could it be? To draw me back to God?” Luckily, God was also in this struggle, knowing what was going on! The Father used to come back and check me all over again, saying, “Well, how could it be from the devil? Who made you love me? Wasn’t it I? Who drew you back to Scriptures? Wasn’t it I?” In this way, the Father was trying to bring me back to my senses, in a very gentle way. Then I was reassured and calm again, but it was not easy.

At one point the second priest said, “At least reject the voice, the spirit of whomever it is who comes to you. Tell him to go away even if He says it is Jesus.” I didn’t want to tell him, “OK, I’ll do it,” so I just didn’t answer, although I did intend to do it, saying to myself, “Well, I’ll do it and see what happens.”

NCH: So you followed the “test” of the priest.

Vassula: Yes, and when Jesus came, I said: “Go away”, or simply did not answer Him. I chased Jesus away for almost three months, until the angel came back, and I said, “OK, why should God speak to a person like me?” I had befriended him (the angel) so much that I knew it was OK to speak with him. The angel passed on the words from Jesus to me; he would say: “Jesus told me to tell you ...” and so on. This I accepted, of course!

Suddenly, after three months, Jesus came and gave three or four words. I heard them, and I said to my angel, “should I really write this down?” And my angel said, “Yes! It is the Lord! Just accept it!” So, because it was like a drop or two, I accepted it.

NCH: Do you feel God Himself helped you learn about discernment?

Vassula: At the very beginning, God Himself said, “I will teach you how to discern. It is important for your mission. This is a gift and I am going to teach it to you.” For this reason, the angel one day said to me, “Vassula, so that you feel the difference within your soul between God’s presence and the devil’s presence, at this very moment that I am talking to you, I shall open the door so that you feel the presence of Satan”. This is how he communicated it to me.

It was as if he opened up Hell. At that moment I can tell you my spine froze! And for a split second I felt a fear, such a fear. Not a fear of something of this earth, but an unearthly, terrible fear of a malicious presence. It lasted two or three seconds, and then quickly, the angel “shut the door” again. My angel said, “Did you feel the difference?” And I felt immediate peace. I said, “Yes! There’s a big difference!”

NCH: So, at the beginning, you had attacks from the devil. It could even happen sometimes that when you were writing the devil could sneak in and write a few words.

Vassula: Yes.

NCH: So you believe God allowed these attacks for a reason? Or did they just happen?

Vassula: No, no, He allowed it, and I think it was for my purification and for my discernment. The devil can never give a proper and good message. It may even sound somewhat good, but then he always signs it. By this I do not mean that he signs his name, but that he cannot avoid giving a little something that reveals himself. That is when you know and it is very quick! If he says three or four words, by the fifth word you know that it’s the devil.

I never panicked whenever I discovered him doing this I would say, “OK, he’s back, trying to deceive me.” And the moment I realized it, he would insult me. Not a second would pass by before he would insult me and disappear. There were many times like this. And Jesus allowed it. He said to me, “I am allowing this so that people will understand that the devil exists. I allow even his words to come out.”

Jesus allowed this for a purpose, namely to show that the devil exists. The Lord has said many times that the devil’s latest trick is to pretend he doesn’t exist. But he does exist!

NCH: So you think that sometimes you were exposed to Satan for your own purification, but also to teach you discernment, or the difference between Jesus and Satan. This way, I suppose, you also learned more how good God is, as you had felt His opposite and longed even more for Christ and for what is right.

Vassula: Yes, it was such a difference. Jesus allows this so that people will realize that Satan exists and that he is not just a myth. Some think that Hell does not exist. This is rubbish! What the church has always taught is true: Hell exists. It is a real place. Satan is an entity, a spirit, and the demons are the fallen angels.

NCH: This confirms the teachings of the Church and what C. S. Lewis wrote: The biggest trick of the devil is to make people believe he does not exist! How do youdescribe the gift of discernment itself?

Vassula: It is not enough to say that Jesus taught me discernment through a few experiences. God gave the gift of discernment to me. It is a true gift, because God opens part of your mind and your spirit to give you this discernment. It is a very sensitive gift. So, by reading only a few words you can tell whether a message is from God or not from God. There is always something there that tells you.

NCH: What were the positive signs that in the long run convinced you that this experience really was from God?

Vassula: The main reason I knew it came from God, and finally said, “I can’t doubt this anymore”, was the knowledge He gave me. The Holy Spirit gives the teachings, and it is all done in a quiet way. It is not like hearing a radio, but rather, it is within you. The Holy Spirit gives teachings only by a “light” of understanding. This means, into your intellect, without any utterance of speech, as if He opens His (AQ: does she mean “your”?) mind for you to know what He wants to say. It is an understanding and knowledge without words.

In fact, in the beginning one day the Father said, “Vassula, do you want Wisdom?” I had this intimacy even at the beginning with the Father, and I just said, “Yes!” without thinking twice, just “Yes, yes!” He said, “You have to acquire Wisdom.” The message was over.

I thought, “What is this about?” Throughout the day I meditated on this. I said, “for heaven’s sake, wisdom? That was given to Solomon and it is a great thing!” God was offering me such a precious thing, and I had allowed myself to say “Yes,” just like that.

The next day I came back to pray, and I called him, saying: “You have offered me wisdom, and I just said yes.” And He said, “Yes, it is a big gift, but you will have to acquire Wisdom.” He said, “acquire” and I thought, “Heaven, how much can I study to earn wisdom this way?” Immediately, He read my thoughts, and He said to me, “but I will help you to acquire Wisdom.” That is what made me understand that these learnings are from God.

I understood that the messages could have three sources: My subconscious, the devil, or God.

On the first point, I soon realised that it could not come from my own mind or subconscious. For a learned person, who has opened theological books, had the catechism, and was taught from Scriptures, you could say that a similar experience could come from his subconscious. But I had absolutely no knowledge of Scripture, of God, or of catechism. I was a blank canvas! Then where did the knowledge come from?

Second, it could be Satan, but then I came to realise that Satan could not convert me, that he could not change me and completely educate me in the spirituality of living a true life in God, loving God, as well as convert others from all around the world through the messages Christ gives. As you may know, we have hundreds and hundreds of testimonies of powerful conversions to know and love God more. Therefore, I had to reject the third option with the voice of the Gospel: “If a household divided against itself, that household can never last” (Mk. 3,25).

This left only the third option as the valid option: It could only come from God.

We cannot continue saying of a message like this, which Christ is giving us to build and save the church today, “Well, we have to think about this.” We have to choose.

I believe I have enough proof now that it is not my subconscious or, as some people say, meditations. Where would my meditations have come from? There was no theology in my system.

NCH: You would have to be a genius at meditating.

Vassula: I probably would be more than a genius if I “meditated” all this!

NCH: But you never studied any theology. You feel this experience goes completely beyond your own capacities. You say you have had to look up some of the words you receive in a dictionary.

Vassula: Yes, I have to look up some of the words in English! Also, the visions that I receive can’t be meditations. And things that have been prophesied in the messages, like Russia’s fall and change, and the prophesy that I would leave Bangladesh have all come true, at just the right time.

You must remember that at the start, when everything began, I was not meditating or in the mood to meditate. I was just writing a list of groceries for a cocktail party that evening! I was very far from meditation. I was involved in tennis and competitions, and I didn’t think twice about God or meditation. We can’t simply call these messages meditations.

Over these years, it’s been like a school where I’ve been called, taught and educated by Jesus. In the beginning school is simple. It is so simple at the beginning that sometimes the language He uses gets misunderstood by people who are not used to spiritual language. It was as if God wanted to adapt himself to my level of understanding, adapt Himself to my vocabulary, my speech, and my way of expressing myself.

If critics say, “The language improves later on”, it’s because I grew in the school of Jesus, like I am now in class five instead of class one. God goes with the capacity and the knowledge He finds, and He brought me up. It is just like that.

When I said to Jesus, at the start, “Your language is simple with me”, he said, “Well, you are a toddler. You are walking with me like a toddler. When you become bigger, I’ll give you more to carry.”

NCH: So Jesus always adapts himself?

Vassula: He does adapt himself and He uses my expressions and my kind of English to be able to communicate with my mind. He adapts Himself all the way to my level, even producing words that I would use more than a native English person. God adapted to me.

NCH: What you say is analogous to a law in theology called the Law of Divine Adaptation. The French researcher Laurent Volken, who wroteabout visions, has used this expression.

In the end, what was the main thing that convinced you of the authenticity of your experience?

Vassula: First, it was the knowledge that was poured in to me. Secondly, God made me grow in love for Him. There are many other aspects, too, that lead me to the conclusion that this is God, but mainly it is the sure knowledge that the source is not Satan, nor me, nor my subconscious, nor my meditations, but God.